108: How to build a slow, hustle-free business that withstands economic slow-downs, featuring The Copywriter Club
In this episode of ill communication, I’m sharing a rebroadcast of an episode I recorded with my friends Rob and Kira over on The Copywriter Club podcast.
I have had several copywriters reach out to me after listening to this episode because in it I talk about some of the practical and tactical ways I started my freelancing business, how I find clients, and how I've weathered the economic slowdown that has caused a lot of us to see a downturn in our revenue.
In particular, people seemed to resonate with the notion of building a business slowly and steadily and not getting caught up in the hype and the hustle to be the biggest success on the block.
Even if you're not a copywriter, you should listen to this full episode, because the tips and strategies I share about referrals, finding clients, building a slower hustle-free business, and creating offers will apply to every small business out there.
Topics We Cover in This Episode:
How I got started as a copywriter after working in the non-profit sector
The one thing that helps me when I am having some self doubt
The power of a follow-up
What to do if you are a struggling copywriter to grow your business
My tips for staying on track and staying hopeful after a tough year
The key to winning your sales calls
The one thing you need to remember when it comes to boundaries
How I get referrals in my business
The figure of copywriting and business
How to grow slowly over time
I hope you enjoyed this episode with The Copywriter Club! It’s a wonderful community hub and learning platform for copywriters and digital marketers.
If you want to explore copywriting as a career or a side gig, you'll definitely want to subscribe to The Copywriter Club podcast or consider joining their community and programs! Check out their links below for more information.
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[00:00:03] Welcome to ill communication, copywriting tips and sales strategies for small business. I'm your host, Kim Keel. I'm a copy coach, sales strategist, and direct response copywriter. It's my mission to help women leaders and changemakers amplify their voices through copy. It's why I'm dishing out all the juicy tips, writing prompts, and sales formulas to help you generate more leads, book more calls, and get more high value clients on repeat. Sounds pretty good. It's time to ditch the overwhelm you might be feeling and find confidence in your copywriting so you can get your message out there and attract more soulmate clients. Let's get started. Hello, my sweet friend. I have a very special episode to share with you today. It's a rebroadcast of an episode I recorded over on the Copywriter Club podcast. Now, after this episode initially aired, several copywriters who heard the episode reached out to me in appreciation for the messages I share. Because in it I talk about some of the practical and tactical ways I started my freelancing business, how I find clients, and how I've weathered the economic slowdown that has caused a lot of us to see a downturn in our revenue. In particular, people seemed to resonate with the notion of building a business slowly and steadily and not getting caught up in the hype and the hustle to be the biggest success on the block. Even if you're not a copywriter, you should listen to this full episode, because the tips and strategies I share about referrals, finding clients, building a slower hustle free business, and creating offers will apply to every small business out there. In this episode, you'll hear me in conversation with Rob Marsh and Kira Hug from the Copywriter Club, which is a wonderful community hub and learning platform for copywriters and digital marketers. If you want to explore copywriting as a career or a side gig, you'll definitely want to subscribe to the Copywriter Club podcast or consider joining their community and programs. I'll drop the links to the copywriter club in the show notes. And now, without further ado, here's the conversation I recorded with Rob and Kira of the Copywriter Club.
[00:02:40] All right, Kim, let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?
[00:02:45] Well, I got to tell you, I'm having kind of, like, a full circle moment because it was about 5 or 6 years ago that I was in my kitchen, you know, bubbling around doing whatever I had to do and listening to the Copywriter Club podcast and hearing Joel Kletzky Tarzan, Kay Earley, Justin Blackmon talking about this field of copywriting and how they had some really good successes. And it was right around that time that I was needing to find another way to work, because I had a day job in the nonprofit sector. I worked in charity for a couple of decades as a fundraiser, fundraising copywriter, front line communications, and that sort of daily commute and the schedule with the kids, uh, school schedules wasn't working anymore. And so I needed to make a shift. And so I discovered the copywriter club at the same time as I kind of discovered this whole online world of business. And the people I heard speaking on your podcast gave me a lot of hope and possibility. And for me to be sitting here now recording on this podcast, like, I feel like I've made it like I'm having my little Sally field moment. So that's sort of a very.
[00:04:04] Saying that that's really nice of you to say, and it's just really gratifying to hear that, like, you're not the first person to say it. It's just yeah, it makes us feel good. So thank you for saying that. Even though you didn't have to.
[00:04:15] No. Well, it's 100% true.
[00:04:19] Okay. Well, let's. Yeah, let's talk about how how you, like, took that early like desire and, you know, turned it into a functioning, um, business.
[00:04:30] Sure. So after I discovered this whole online world of business and I discovered the field of copywriting, which I had already been doing, but I didn't know that's what you called it. Uh, then I decided to go all in on it, and I quit my day job. And my first client was actually that employer. So that was sort of how I made the shift from working a day job into becoming a freelancer and becoming self-employed. And as I opened up more time in my calendar, I leveraged some of my older relationships. They would hire me to do smaller projects, and then I joined some different communities. So I joined copy school. I joined your community, the copywriter underground. I joined B-School, and in there I found all these other online entrepreneurs who were doing stuff and, uh, both used them for inspiration. But also many of them became my clients. And so when I was in those other communities learning about online business, uh, joining masterminds, those other women would actually hire me to, uh, write for them because I was one of the only copywriters in the group. Um, but it was really even though I had, like a decade and a half of experience writing, I still had so much self-doubt, still questioned whether I could actually do this thing called copywriting. So joining some of the copywriter programs really gave me the confidence that I needed. And like, maybe a little badge to make me feel like, okay, yeah, I can do this and made me feel more comfortable when people would come to me, I could speak confidently that I knew what I was talking about.
[00:06:13] Okay, so many questions for you. Um, let's start with leveraging older relationships, which seems obvious, but that's something I feel like is still untapped for many of us. Like, I even feel like it's untapped for me. I have a lot of relationships and like, how often am I going back and leveraging or warming them up? So, um, what does that look like for you and what does it look like today if it's changed?
[00:06:38] Yeah. So I still generally have a long follow up game. Uh, in the beginning, it was sort of reaching out to my personal networks and saying, hey, I'm quitting my job. I'm becoming a copywriter. This is what a copywriter is, because nobody at that time knew what a copywriter was. I has kind of changed that a bit. Uh, and as I reached out to those people, they would know people and they'd be able to make referrals to me. Um, I got a lot of referrals from people within the copywriting community who would throw me the odd contract. And even if I didn't land it right away, I would still follow up a couple weeks later, a couple months later, even a year later. Just kind of like a hey, how's it going? And that is something that I still do today with my past clients and with people who I've had sales calls like a year and a half ago, they will come back. And it's that sort of constantly staying on their radar that I think has really helped me to get repeat business and to get additional referrals because as they are going about their business, they see your name pop up in the inbox and they know somebody in their community is looking for a copywriter. They will connect me to that person. So it's that sort of gentle, hey, how's it going? Thinking about you? And it it always seems to work out.
[00:08:00] Yeah. Like Kyra said, I think this is really untapped for a lot of us. And so I kind of want to probe here just a little bit. Uh, you know, as you were going out onto your own that first your former employer that became your client, what did that conversation look like? Uh, and I'm almost asking you here for a script because I'm thinking there have got to be other people listening who are thinking, well, I could turn my employer into my first client if I went out. So tell us, how did you approach your your boss or whoever you needed to talk to and what did that conversation sound like?
[00:08:32] Well, I guess I was pretty lucky because they didn't want to lose me. Like I had to quit to accommodate my family's needs at the time. And, uh, they they were, they said, like, how can we keep you? What can we do to keep you? And I was able to then create, like a smaller package or carved off a part of my job that I really liked and I knew I could do remotely. And I said, well, how about I just manage all the grants, the grant fundraising grants, as opposed to doing all of the other fundraising that I was doing at the time? And so by saying, like, I can do this portion for you and I'll just slot right in, I'll keep working on it. And it was attractive to them because a they had already known me. They knew how well I worked, they knew I would be able to deliver. And so it was it was honestly an easy yes for them if I were to do it again. I have made similar pitches to employers in the past, like, say, where I wanted to move and work remotely. This was like pre-pandemic, like ten, ten, 15 years ago. But it's it's still coming, coming to them with a solution fully mapped out and say, these are the things that I'm going to do for you. This is what it's going to cost. I can work remotely, I can do this totally independent, and I'll just keep this going for you. So I think it's identifying a need and showing how you can just slot right into their team without it being more headache and, and more money for them.
[00:10:02] Yeah, I think that's the key is the solution piece. Like whether it's a warm relationship or cold relationship, it's like come to the table with a solution rather than just targeting the problem. Uh, you mentioned self-doubt, fear. You know, that's something we can all relate to. And it creeps up at different times. Like for you, you had all this experience, but it still crept up because you were going into a new business. Um, I think for copywriters, it can creep up at different stages in their business. So what else could help you? Annoying. Um, what else helped you? Or maybe even helps you now beyond the courses? Because I agree. Like courses, education, getting that badge does matter. But what else has helped you?
[00:10:45] Uh, it is. It's a constant battle. I still like on the weekly have like, oh, my gosh, I should burn down my business. Nobody loves me. Oh, look at so and so. Their podcast has so many more downloads than I do look at. They're getting all these accolades and I'm like here. Just like chugging along quietly in the background and filled with self-doubt. When I have those moments of self-doubt, I reach out to my like, my squad. Like I have some voxer friends who I'm like, guys, I'm. I'm spiraling. I feel like crap. And they'll come in and they'll be like, no, you're good, you're awesome. And it's like, just having that hype squad is so helpful. And then also having, you know, I'm part of some more intimate business masterminds and having a coach who's able to see what you've accomplished over the last year and remind you, well, didn't you just land that sales? Didn't you just land that client? Didn't that client have like, an amazing launch? Like they're able to reflect back to me what I maybe can't see for the moment. So it's a constant practice, but I think it's really having other people around you to help cheerlead you on and, um, make you feel less alone. I think that's a big part of it.
[00:11:55] Yeah, I love that. And that's something that we've seen, like you mentioned the the underground earlier. We've seen that in our groups and our mastermind and even sometimes just having Kira there to, you know, to say, hey, yeah, that was actually pretty good or vice versa.
[00:12:10] So I thought I brought you down. I didn't think I brought you up.
[00:12:13] Yeah, you.
[00:12:14] Bring me up. I mean, it was interesting.
[00:12:16] We we we.
[00:12:18] Had a sales page that we used for a promotion a week or two ago, and somebody emailed saying this is the best sales page ever written. Actually, they post it on LinkedIn and Kira wrote it. I'm like, that kind of stuff is is awesome. So, you know, maybe this is an opportunity to encourage everybody who's listening to reach out to somebody who you admire, who you think is doing a great job and just say, you know, you are, you're fantastic and you're killing it even because you're right. I think a lot of us feel like we're not killing it day to day and or even making it sometimes, and that can be hard.
[00:12:51] Um, and I'm, I'm pretty lucky. Like I have a very super tiny email list. Uh but there's a few people on there who are copywriters and uh, and pretty well known copywriters and they will often reach out and say, this was a great email. You know, yours are the only emails that I read. And like, I get a lot of emails. And so, like hearing that from people who I admire and highly respect is super gratifying. And I guess sometimes I just have to remind myself that, oh yeah, I'm actually okay at this thing.
[00:13:21] Yeah, I love those. Those emails are amazing when they come in. Okay, so I want to also ask you, uh, while we're talking about this, you know, the Hype squad and whatever, you mentioned that you often get referrals from copywriters. Maybe it's not often, but you do get these referrals and there's so much follow up. Let's talk a little bit about that follow up game. Because again, this is another place where I think it's really easy to get discouraged. Obviously, we don't want to be spamming people who are not interested in our businesses and in getting help from us, but there is a lot of power in following up and being there at the right time. So let's go a little deeper there too.
[00:13:57] Sure. Uh, what really changed my perspective on follow up was, uh, I don't even remember where I was or where she shared it, but Denise Duffield Thomas, um, the money coach, uh, she shared one time that her team doesn't even respond to pitches or to potential prospective clients unless they have followed up 2 or 3 times to show that they're actually interested in working with them. And so when I heard her say that, you know, the bar for actually getting an interview with us is that you have to follow up 2 or 3 times like that totally changed my perspective and made me feel like, okay, well, I'm going to do that. And so often people will book a call with me. I'll have that call. Maybe it won't be a right fit at that time. Maybe they'll decide to go with someone a little bit cheaper. And I will still in about a month after that, send an email. Hey, I was just thinking about you. I'm looking at my calendar. Do you have any copywriting needs? If you do, give me a shout. And it's happened so often where people have chosen someone else and then months, even a year later, they'll come, come to me. And it's just that sort of it's it's an inoffensive, gentle nudge. It's almost like I send that nine word email every so often just to kind of touch base. And it's a friendly, hey, it's not like a hard pitch. It's just I'm thinking about you. We had that sales call. Do you still need help? Did you get it all sorted out? It's really coming from a place of service and it's really served me in the long run. People who I've followed up with will come back to me a year, a year and a half, even two years, two years after that initial sales call.
[00:15:44] Yeah. And sometimes it's it's a long game.
[00:15:47] Yeah.
[00:15:48] Very long. And it's not a matter of them hiring someone else. Sometimes it is, but sometimes they decide not to hire anyone and just kind of sit with the problem longer. And then a year later they're like, okay, the problem's worse. I need to we need to work together. What else would you recommend? Like knowing that again people. It's been a rough year for many writers and many are struggling. Not all are struggling. What has worked for you more recently that you would recommend to copywriters? If they're struggling just to get projects in the door and grow and they're thinking about like, you know, I can't do this, this isn't working anymore.
[00:16:26] Yeah, 2023 did a real number on me, like, uh, just like it did for so many. I had huge financial goals for last year and I didn't even, like, didn't even come close. My my revenue dropped back to like 2021 revenue levels. So it was it was tough. What I did find towards the end was offering really quick turnaround services. So VIP days, uh, power strategy sessions, small service, small bites, audits, things like that that sort of helped people say yes to this small amount that could help them move the needle just a little bit, even if they weren't able to invest in like a larger project. But that quick turnaround, maybe sacrificing some of that research piece that we all love to do, but just trying to get in and and create an instant shift. And that worked for new clients, but it also worked for going back to my repeat clients. So clients who I'd worked with in the past, I reached out, do you need your brand voice guide updated? How's that email sequence working for you? Do you need any like punch ups or additions to any of the copy projects that we worked on in the past? And so I did get a few people coming back to me to update their brand voice guide, to redo a sequence, and to hire me for a day and a half to do something. But those smaller bites seem to be more attractive.
[00:17:50] And as you did that, uh, is there something you're doing differently in your pitch at all? You know, as you make that approach, you know, are you having a conversation? Well, maybe you're not ready for this bigger thing. Here's something else to try. Or is it just you're you've just made the switch and your clients are none the wiser?
[00:18:07] No, I think it's still laying out. These are my these are my top tier offers. And if that doesn't work for you, here's this quick hit. And everyone's finances were a little bit tight last year. So that quick hit was nicer for their budgets as well. Uh, and the time that the quick time frame was, was better for them as well. So they do know what my higher ticket offers are, but they would choose that lower, lower level investment.
[00:18:34] Yeah, I love that you're mentioning this because we've literally, I think in the last two months probably had 2 or 3 other people say, hey, if you're struggling, make it smaller, make it bite size, make it easier for a client to say yes. This isn't really a question. I'm just I'm just sort of patting you on the back saying, I feel like you've arrived at the same solution that so many other people who have figured this out have, have also arrived at.
[00:18:57] Mhm. And like, I'm so glad we're having this conversation because it's reminding me that that really worked towards the end of 2023. And so, uh, as we head into the slower seasons to maybe think about doing that again.
[00:19:10] Yeah. And I know we talked a little bit about, you know, self-doubt and how that you've had your, your hype squad and that's helped you. But how we coming out of 2023. And I appreciate you sharing that. It was a tough year for you. Um, then how do you look at 2024? I know we're already you know, we're already a quarter into it. But like, how do you plan ahead and think about the future and feel hopeful enough to get yourself focused and on track when it you're coming out of a tough year?
[00:19:43] I, I do work with a coach so I have somebody to bounce ideas off of, someone to reflect back to me what's working. And in addition to my private one on one services that are sort of a more premium level, I also have a mid-tier offer, which is called the Joy of Copy Club, where business owners can come in and it's sort of like a group copy coaching experience. Uh, and I've been having a hard time selling it. Uh, people are not wanting to join this group coaching program for whatever. Maybe I'm not selling it, right? Whatever. But I've decided to then focus on what is selling. And right now, what is selling is high ticket services. Like the people who held off on investing in 2023, whose launches tanked in 2023. They're like, oh my gosh, what? We need to hire somebody to get this figured out for us. So I've had a number of people reach out to me and, and book me for their launches in early 2024, and I can see that that pattern is continuing. So I'm actually making a concerted effort to actually focus on my one on one services and get those booked out. Uh, and sort of like, let the copy club just sort of hang out in the background until I have more space to actually focus on filling that.
[00:21:02] Yeah. As I listen to you talk about this stuff, Kim, it seems to me that you're really good at the ebb and flow of business. You know, if if this isn't working, I'm going to try this. And before we started recording, in fact, the conversation that you and I had, you know, when we were saying, hey, you should come on the podcast to talk about this was really all about the slow and steady growth of a business. Oftentimes on the podcast, we talk to people who have had a pretty meteoric rise. You know, they they made six figures in their first year or, you know, they've they've done something pretty amazing. And I think it's also really important to hear that perspective of somebody who's grown a little bit at a time, a little bit more each year, and isn't necessarily worried about huge gains or building a team or so many of the other things that we often talk about. So with that ebb and flow, let's talk just a little bit more about that slow growth model and how you've accomplished that almost year from year, how your business has changed and you've adapted things to make that work.
[00:22:05] Sure. So I think because I came to online business and being self-employed and a freelancer, as a middle aged person, like I was 42 when I started becoming a copywriter, uh, I had a family, like my family was older, but still young. I still had to like that was my priority. So my business couldn't. I couldn't dedicate as much time to exponentially growing. My business is maybe some other people who maybe are pre-kids might be able to. Or on the other side of the spectrum, whose kids are up and out, who can then focus on exponentially growing their business, or who have a spouse who looks after all, the household. I had that as a constraint in my life and my business, so I had to sort of allow my business to support my family and still grow my business. I also would hear all the advice out there, and then I would just take what I felt was meaningful to me and what I could do. So, you know, build a funnel, build a lead gen, like do all this stuff. I didn't want to do any of that. I didn't want to set up a Big Tex I. I just set up my first funnel like three weeks ago. Like I have never had a full tech funnel set up. I run a very lean business with Google Docs with like a wave invoice, like I've never had checkout pages before, so I just kept it very high touch, uh, very simple. And not having those extra expenses for either a team or a tech stack to have to manage all that. For me, I've had high profitability, but also it just makes it easier for me to then focus on just doing the work and not worrying.
[00:23:51] Are all these funnels and systems working for me? But I've just found different ways of keeping that, that engine going and chugging along and listening to the advice and then deciding what what fits with me and my lifestyle and and my family. And fortunately, like some things don't work, but a lot of it has worked out. And I think one of the things that really helped me out over the last several years was I did have sort of a core retainer client who was I was able to work with for four years, and that was super helpful because it just provided that sort of steady a baseline of steady revenue. And then I could add on these other clients and experiment with these other offers. Um, I also think just having a little bit of life under my belt, I, I can come to these client conversations and sales calls and meet them as an equal. And it was never I never have felt like, oh, I'm subservient to the client or I'm lesser than the client. And I think the clients like that. When you come to the sales calls, you show up on your kickoff calls with confidence and you know what you're doing and they feel like they're well taken care of. And I think that that's been part of the reason why I've also been successful is because I know how to handle people. And, uh, and yeah, just having some of that life experience goes a long way.
[00:25:21] So if you had a retainer for four years, that's really impressive. Not easy to do that. Can you share what worked? Well, you know what you would encourage other writers to do if they're setting up a retainer based off your experience?
[00:25:38] I've experienced I've experimented several times with different retainers, with different kinds of clients. And, I mean, I really had a unicorn client. She was she still is beautiful, but she's doesn't need that kind of service anymore. But she she from the get go was just someone who was beautiful to work with. Uh, she had me do a test project at the beginning. And I know that there are some people who shy away from wanting to do a test project or do like, you know, a give me a sample of your copywriting. But every time I've done it, it has resulted in like tens of thousands of dollars. So I just want to say like, don't be afraid to do those test projects because they can turn into a really lucrative, uh, opportunity. And it also is a chance for me to try on that client. It's like it works both ways. So with that particular client, we were able to really, over time, build out what that retainer would look like. It was I was writing Facebook ads for her. And so I would write, you know, sort of a it was almost like an accordion.
[00:26:45] Some months there'd be a lot of, uh, Facebook ads. Sometimes there would be less, but we had this mutual understanding that we would keep it at this rate to allow for that ebb and flow with other clients. I have created a 3 to 6 month retainer engagement to focus on sales copy, and sometimes it crosses over into that almost an employee relationship where I need the sales page tomorrow, I need a stack of emails. And so I've had to a learn from my own ways, like suck it up and just do it. But then going forward, being able to set some more strict boundaries around that. So now my retainers are quite clear in terms of this is what I'm going to do for you on a monthly basis. And over the six months we'll work on these three large projects together. Large projects include X, Y, and Z. And, you know, I'll still throw in some bonuses here and there to surprise and delight the client and make them feel like they're getting a really good value.
[00:27:44] So yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what those retainers look like. Because, you know, when we say, well, like a 3 or 6 month retainer to do sales copy, how did you manage that ebb and flow? Where were you having meetings to talk about what was getting accomplished that month? Like, how was that all spelled out?
[00:28:04] Uh, with the with the unicorn. Amazing client. We worked pretty much in slack. She would send me a creative brief. I would do it every few months. We'd have a call, check in. How's it going for you? Great. So she's sort of the the pinnacle. She ruined me for all other retainer clients with the more with my regular retainer clients, we have a monthly call to set the priority for the month. We agree these are the projects that are coming up. These are the copy assets that we need. This is the timeline that we need. And from there I would just sort of deliver that. Right now my retainers I have sort of two levels of retainer. One is four, four, four, four a month, just under 5000. Uh, and it includes four nurture emails. It includes, um, three major sales copy projects, um, over the course of the six months, uh, which would be like a big launch. It would be optimizing or writing a sales page and a sales sequence. It might be doing a brand voice guide, or it might be rewriting their website. So it's those big projects that we can condense into that six month period, and then they get sort of a month to month. A few projects, like emails that we can write together. And then there's a step down from that, which still it's about 2500 a month, and it's four emails plus some a mini, like a landing page or like a small short email sequence. So something a little bit smaller.
[00:29:39] Okay, I love I love how you structured the six month one because this is such a struggle is just how to think about the projects and then the nurture how it all works together. How do you how do you hold your boundary with that, especially with launches? Because like when you're saying, okay, we do a launch project over the six months, I mean, that could be that could be a $50,000 launch project really easily. So how do you manage that piece of it?
[00:30:08] Uh, I mean, I make a lot of mistakes in terms of my own boundaries. Yes, I have there are some late nights that I'm pulling to to make sure the copy is done, but that repeatable revenue over the six months is so valuable to me and my peace of mind that I don't mind. Oh, so okay, May is going to be really tough because this client is launching, and this other client hired me to do something else. Like, I know I'm going to have to put my head down and work, but I'm okay with that. I always feel like I have choice, and I always feel like I'm the one who got myself into this situation, and I just got to suck it up and do it and do it as best to the best of my ability. And then sort of going forward, I might say, well, that's actually not scoped in or we already covered that. So there are some ways that if someone says, can you do this for me, I'll say yes. Would you like me to scope that into the retainer? I can send you a new invoice. So it's just kind of like it's it's more of I learn my lesson each time and then just try to fix it going forward.
[00:31:10] And you're probably, I mean, a solid planner, right? You're planning at the beginning of the six months. So, you know, when the launches and all those events are taking place and there are no surprises. It's all built and baked in so you can manage your calendar. For the most part, I hear what you're saying, like mistakes happen. And I appreciate you being honest about that, but I'm just thinking to control the calendar, you probably need that ahead of time.
[00:31:35] I mean, I think the way I've structured the retainers now is because I've been in retainer relationships before where it was like, oh, I just decided to launch this new mini offer. I'm going to need a sales page and 12 emails, and it's like I didn't have the structure around that or the ability to have the conversation at the time. So now I just have more clear boundaries as I go forward. And yes, those boundaries are going to be wishy washy at times.
[00:32:04] So, Kim, one of the things that you mentioned is you were talking about, you know, the the referrals or, sorry, the retainers and, you know, setting up your businesses that you like to keep things high touch. And you won't have heard this interview yet, but many of the listeners will have heard our interview with Jason Freedman where we talked about customer experience and building a customer experience. So I'm curious what high touch means to you, because when you say, well, I was keeping it simple, uh, you know, waive invoice and Google Docs, somebody might argue, well, you know, that's that's not all that high touch. So clearly there's some personal communication or something else that's going on here where you're, you're having a high touch experience. Tell us what exactly you do to make sure that those clients are thrilled with the work you do.
[00:32:51] I, I think it starts from that sales call and how you show up on the sales call and how you follow up after that. So when I show up on the sales call, I spend a lot of time listening, uh, I, I feed back to them what I've heard to make sure we're on the same page. And then after the call, a day, maybe two days, sometimes even three. Like, I'm not, like, super on it all the time. I'll send. It's a simple Google doc with a table that says, these are the deliverables. This is the cost. This is the timeline. This is what we talked about. Do you want to move forward? And it's often like yep and no proposal. It's because we've had that conversation. If there is further questioning or questions, then they'll just email me back or we'll hop on a second call to clarify that. In terms of how else I provide that high touch is for premium clients. They get my voxer, they get my cell phone number, they can text me and message me any time they want. Very few of them ever do like they because they're at that high level of operating their businesses. They don't actually reach out as much as you might think. Um, and even if they did, I, I would wait 24 hours to respond in some cases, you know, like, I just set my own boundaries for when I reply. Uh, if they do have a need where they're like, oh my gosh, something came up. I know you need, uh, 48 hours to turn something around. Can you get this done? I'll often say yes just because I want them to feel well supported in that experience. And then, you know, from time to time I'll send gifts. I'll send like little care packages, um, things to make them feel special and to, to show my appreciation. I'm not sure if I fully answered that for you, Rob, in terms of that high touch.
[00:34:48] No, no, you did. In fact, you know, I know as soon as you said I give my cell phone number, allow them to text me any time. I'm guessing a bunch of people listening just went, oh my gosh, she's crazy. Yeah, but it also occurs to me that in doing that, you are creating a level of confidence with that particular client where, okay, I know she's there for me. And like you said, they hardly ever take advantage of it. But that trust, that level of support that you add on, I think that's over and above what most copywriters would do, probably more than I would do. I'm not sure that I want my clients texting me anytime that they might feel the need, but on the other hand, I do want them to feel like they could and get that support. So I think I really like that, even though I sort of have mixed feelings about that whole idea.
[00:35:39] And it's very rare that anyone ever really texts me, sometimes they'll give me a voice note on WhatsApp, or they'll definitely voice note me on Voxer, but I really love hearing their voice and hearing the questions they ask, because that is how I can write like them. Because when they're talking, then I can write like them, or they'll say, I had this idea for a thing and blah blah blah blah blah, and it's just easier for them to get it out on Voxer or WhatsApp. Then for let's hop on a meeting, let's talk about what we can write about in our emails this month. Like just tell me some stories that happened to you, and then I'll turn that into a series of emails. So I like providing it. The only times people have ever called me is if, uh, like they're going to miss a meeting. Like, it's really just as a courtesy.
[00:36:28] Yeah. I mean, it's a good way to avoid conflict, too, right? Where there's. You don't have a client sitting there fuming over some issue. They're more likely to just text you or send you a voice memo if there's something. So you're aware of that. Um, I probably won't give out my phone number because I have a flip phone and I just don't. Texting is really hard. Like, it just is very physically hard to text on it. I like I like it conceptually. Um. Let's talk about launching, because that's where your specialty, one of your many specialties. Uh, I also love that space. And I'm wondering what you've seen work recently, like what isn't working now with your clients and their launches? What is working, any observations you've made over the last six months or so?
[00:37:15] I think we can all agree that people are taking a lot longer to make decisions, and that sort of five day challenge and into a high pitched, high ticket, $2,000 sale isn't working so well anymore. People are maybe coming into that, and then maybe they'll buy on the next round or the round after that. Uh, so allowing for a longer cart where someone can experience you a little bit more. Um, I took Brenda McGowan's pre-launch plan program training, and, I mean, that was probably one of the best investments I made in my business last year, because it gave me so much structure into that six week content. Before you get into the launch, and it and I have used it with a couple of clients and they were seeing sales before their cart even opened, which they hadn't seen before. So last year they had really difficult sales. And this year, when we added in a pre-launch and we updated some of the sales, uh, emails, uh, they did see a lift in their, uh, revenue and their, and their sales. So I think that being more strategic with that pre-launch process, like hat tip to Brenna for owning that space. But I took the training from her, so now I can do it too. Uh, which I guess is another tip for any copywriter who's listening is get certification and training in other areas that you can niche into, because it is an additional service that I can add on. It's a new product that I can serve, uh, provide, uh, so that that longer window, um, what I know from other people in the launch space is that more of that personal touch. So as we're talking about this high touch, even people who are launching are using either Manychat or even video ask, they're actually getting into people's inboxes, onto their phones, into their DMs that that coach or the team is making that personal outreach while the cart is open. So just adding an additional layer of of touch to invite somebody in.
[00:39:20] So I'm curious, you know, with adding on services like a pre-launch plan, are you pitching that to clients or is that part of the discussion when a client comes to you and says, okay, I'm ready to do a launch? Is that when you lay this out and say, okay, the pre-launch is going to take us, you know, 3 to 6 weeks, it's going to be x thousands of dollars, and then we're going to set up all of the launch material, like how does that discussion work. And and I guess the reason I'm asking this is I'm wondering how much you're using a consultant role here where the client comes and says, hey, I need a sales page for this thing. And you say, hold on a second, let's back this up and and make it work. Uh, which is really two different approaches to, to what we do.
[00:40:05] With the client, who I most recently worked with. It was very much, we need someone to rewrite our sales page and rewrite our sales emails because the emails are not converting. It's crickets over here. And when I got in and I looked at that, I said, I see a big gap here. In terms of your pre-launch strategy. We were so late in the game, uh, like we were. They just reached out to me. Too late for me to actually plan, do the plan and write the content for them. But I was able to basically sell them the plan and say, I'll write the plan, but you're just going to have to implement it on the fly. And they like they bought that add on. Basically it was, hey, I see this as a gap. So it is more you're hiring me for a service, but I see a strategic gap. And I'm going to I'm going to offer that to you with this particular service, the pre-launch plan or like brand voice guides, I've been able to go back to past clients and say, hey, this is a new service I offer. It's a brand voice guide. If you're having if you're becoming a bottleneck in your business, I can help create the structure for you so that you can pass on that copy to your team, your outsourced, outsourced copywriters. And because a lot of people have worked with me before, they know I am attuned to their voice. So they they will say yes to that.
[00:41:23] How are you marketing yourself and how are you showing up? Like, I know we've talked a little bit about networking and you have a really great referral network and community, but what else? If you are doing anything else to build visibility and, you know, authority?
[00:41:41] I mean, I'm like the cobbler's kid. I'm the worst. I feel like I'm the worst marketer in the world. I have the tiniest email list. I never had a funnel until a few weeks ago. Like, uh, but I did launch a podcast, uh, about a year and a half ago, and it's still is very small listenership, but the people who listen to it, like, reply back to me and say, this is amazing. This is filling a gap. It's very short form, bite size. It's like one copywriting formula, one sales formula, one writing prompt, or sort of one theme. It's really following the rule of one. Uh, and uh, it's a short form podcast that both copywriters and business owners are loving. Uh, but I really have two different audiences, so I have the sort of 6 to 6 figure $250,000 entrepreneur who wants to join the copy club or needs some smaller ticket services. And then I have this seven eight figure launcher. Who they aren't. They aren't consuming my content. Let's be real. They're not on my email list. They're they're coming to me through referrals. But when they get the referral, I know they're coming and checking out my website. I know they're looking at my Instagram. I know they're going to probably go over to the podcast and take a peek. So I have active things there. Uh, but aside from the podcast, I really don't create content or build my authority in any other way. I do host monthly marketing moments. So instead of like having this complicated event, I just sort of have open office hours or I'll talk about like how to write a welcome sequence and I'll throw open the doors to anyone who wants to come, and I'll get copywriters, I'll get business owners, and they come and hang out with me for two hours. Maybe I'll make a pitch to join a program or share my services in the hopes that eventually, when they're ready, they'll come to me or they'll refer me.
[00:43:37] And your podcast is called the Ill Communication Podcast. Is that right? Yes, it's.
[00:43:42] Called Ill Communication. Yeah.
[00:43:44] Tell us about the name and why. Why ill?
[00:43:47] I am a die hard Beastie Boys fan, and one of their best albums is called Ill Communication, and some of their songs reference it. So I like my original email, like way back in the day was Beastie Girl K at yahoo.com, So when I had the idea for a podcast, I was like, it has to be called the Ill Communication Podcast. So like, you can become the illest, the best, the raddest, uh, communicator when you listen to this podcast.
[00:44:18] Okay, so why didn't you lead off with Beastie Girl K uh, at Yahoo! That like, should have been the introduction of the podcast.
[00:44:25] That's awesome.
[00:44:30] I have to I have to update my intros anyway, so maybe I'll do that for the next one.
[00:44:33] No, I.
[00:44:34] Think it's hilarious.
[00:44:36] So, you know, listening to you in this conversation, you're so intentional about what you're doing. Like Rob said, you know, kind of how to zig and zag through business. And I just love the way that you approach growth and the craft. And I'm wondering what you do to kind of cultivate the CEO mindset that you clearly have. And beyond coaching, you mentioned that I think obviously we're big believers in mentorship, but what else do you do? Is it like a weekly check in CEO check in something else?
[00:45:12] I have a, uh, an assistant who supports me in my business. She is another mom at the school. Like I met her when my oldest kid was in kindergarten. We met in the hallway and she sort of started her online business at the same time that I did, and she would tell you, I do not have a CEO mindset. She and I.
[00:45:35] Let's bring her.
[00:45:35] Into this. I have like a I know, right? I have a Trello board. I kind of follow it. She really keeps me on task in terms of like, these are the leads, these are who we've got to follow up. But have you followed up with that person? So she really helps me, uh, in that regard. I really try to stay in my zone of genius, which is like actually writing copy. Um, and in terms of the outreach, like, I just know that I have to do it, and I know that it doesn't have to be hard. It can just just the other day, I slack messaged a past client. I had delivered all of her copy. By the end of the year. I messaged her, messaged her saying, hey, your launch looked like it went really well. Um, following up on the voice guide, do you need any edits? How's the website doing? And she wrote back, she's like, I need a call with you. She booked a call the next morning, we hopped on a call and she bought an audit for $1,200. So like, just that little reach out, a friendly reach out. Like, it doesn't have to be so complicated and hard. I also know that when I focus on something like if I'm hosting a monthly marketing moment or next week, I'm hosting a boot camp on writing your welcome sequence.
[00:46:52] I'm putting so much effort into that, and I'm showing up on social, and I'm creating content about it. And I know that the money isn't going to come from that event. Someone else from left field is going to come and book a call, and they're going to hire me for a bigger package. So I just know that it doesn't matter where I'm focusing my reach out efforts, just the fact that I'm in motion will attract that new client, and I have to just be okay with the fact that even though I'm investing so much time and money into this dang boot camp, someone's going to come in from some other way, and I'm kind of okay with that. So I just really have a lot of faith that the universe is going to meet me where I am, but it is a constant everyday practice for me to stay in that positive mindset. And I do I do go down in the dumps, but that's where in my assistant or my squad will be like, hey, you're actually doing okay. You're surviving. You didn't shut down your business like those other copywriters did, like. So I think just sort of that trust and faith goes a long way.
[00:47:53] Yeah, I love that that thinking, um, it feels a little woo, which I'm sure Rob loves as far as, like, putting out energy.
[00:48:01] Here.
[00:48:01] Will help me receive in a different way, But like, I know it works. I know if I keep showing up and building momentum that I will be able to receive in other ways in my business, rather than just freezing and not doing anything, because this activity isn't working over here. And I love that you said that, because I think that's a big part of business is just like, keep trying, keep moving, keep just iterating and, um, and getting stuff done.
[00:48:28] I know inside the copywriter club right now, you're doing the 25 hard, which I think is awesome. I love seeing the posts people are making in there, but I just know that, like that kind of action, people are going to be pitching to those five people a week or whatever it is, and it might not be any of those five people who reach out or who close. It'll be someone else. Like it happened when I was a fundraiser. I'd be going and having conversations with major donors. I'd be writing grant applications for this, that and the other thing. And then a big donor would come out of left field, and it's just knowing that it's going to happen. But you can't just sit back and be passive about it. You have to actually be in motion, take action and take smart action to like, yes, you will get some people will buy tickets to the boot camp, but the big money is not going to come from there.
[00:49:19] Yeah, I mean, that echoes something I've been saying to copywriters for the last few months about, you know, how do you how do you share why you need to be sharing what you're doing all the time? Because it does. It ripples out. And it's not always from your inner circle. Uh, related to this, you know, you have mentioned probably if. Well, if I went back and counted, it's probably 6 or 7 times. Maybe it was more than that. You've mentioned referrals at least that many times. Obviously, referrals are really important to your business. Part of getting referrals is doing great work and providing that high touch. But is there anything else that you do to encourage clients to give you referrals, or are you just let it happen organically?
[00:49:57] I mean, I've tried reaching out and when I was in copy school, um, I think Joe had or whatever it was called back in the day, freelance. She had like a template for how to ask for referrals. And I tried that template a few times, and honestly, it never resulted in anything for me. Um, so I'm less focused on reminding clients to make referrals for me, and it's more just about, hey, thinking about you. How's it going? Because they're in communities with other people who need great copywriters. And so they talk to each other. And it's those referral conversations. Those people are pre-sold by the time they get on the call with me. Like, those are the easiest sales calls that I have is when someone's on and they're like, yeah, how much does it cost? Okay, yeah. What are you going to do? Okay, great. I'm going to go talk to the CEO and then we'll we'll sign off on this. And they're they're pre-sold. So I love referrals. And when people make a referral for me, I send a beautiful gift. Sometimes I've send, you know, a referral fee. Uh, I follow up even when someone makes a referral for me and it doesn't land, I follow up and I say, oh, that one didn't. That one didn't land. It wasn't a great fit. But I really appreciated that you made that offer. Do you know anyone else who might need this new pre-launch service that I'm offering, or I'm now offering brand voice guides, and it's just being in the orbit as opposed to being really strategic. I think that's that's kind of the answer to your question. A long winded way to answer it.
[00:51:37] As we start to wrap up, I want to hear about what's next for you as you're thinking about the future of. Well, I mean, in the way, in parallel, like the future of copywriting and marketing alongside the future of your business and how you see the two molding together.
[00:51:58] One of the things I'm really passionate about is helping women find their voices and helping women have confidence to ask for the sale. And in writing or on a sales call. But mostly in writing because that's my my medium. So through the podcast, I really want to have a huge impact. And through the joy of Copy Club, I know I can help a lot of women business owners, uh, find that voice, develop the momentum. Like writing sales copy isn't that hard when you know the frameworks and the formulas and the process. And for someone who is running a very small boutique consultancy, maybe can't hire a high end copywriter, like you can do it yourself. And so I really would love to see my platform expand so that I can serve more of that, that group of entrepreneurs who's kind of not at that seven figure level, not at the newbie level, but like in this middle ground where you have so much expertise but you just don't know how to share it in a way that's going to connect and compel and get the sale. And so for me, I'm very impact driven. So that's really where I would love to see my business go, is expanding that impact and reach. I still see myself delivering one on one services, but I also choose those clients because they're working with the same audience as me. So they're serving women to help them, you know, improve their lives, to gain more authority, to get more wealth into their into their lives. So it's really an impact play. And yes, I like money too.
[00:53:39] So this is probably related to that question, but what advice would you have for anybody who's listening who would like to take a similar path? Slow growth, consistent growth over time, not worrying too much about, you know, hitting six figures that first year, whatever that looks like. Or maybe this is even advice to a younger you. What would you do a little bit differently to make it work?
[00:54:08] I mean, the.
[00:54:09] Only thing I would do differently was I would have started sooner. I would have not looked at online business for 2 or 3 years before I actually pulled the trigger. I would have left sooner. Um, and I think if you do great work, if you are a great human and you do great work and you deliver on time, that that already puts you ahead of the game. Like delivering quality work on time is such a low bar, but it seems to be a low bar. And if you can get if you can do that, you're already ahead of the game. Um, and I just really think it is slow and steady. It is. Just put your foot forward. Some people like to sprint, but I'm not a sprinter. Like, I just want to like take a step forward, watch a little Netflix, take another step forward, do a little reach out. Yes, I could grow faster. Potentially I could grow faster. But at what cost? We've seen so many people like downsize their teams in the last year, the last two years. Huge coaches have, like completely shut down their business because they've probably scaled too much, built too much. Team can't handle the stress as they balance those family obligations. And so I really think that just being slow and steady and having a small business is fabulous and is great, and just to trust that you know what's best for you and to stop outsourcing that thinking to other people who are telling you to do it a certain way and to just find your own way forward.
[00:55:49] Well, this has been really inspiring and motivating, and there's been so much, so many practical tips that we can use and apply in our businesses today. So thank you so much, Kim, and I hope that you're speaking on many other podcasts and sharing all your wisdom with other audiences because you're. This was great. Thank you. Where should our listeners go if they want to connect with you?
[00:56:12] Sure. So I am kind of active on Instagram. That handle is Kim underscore Keele underscore copy. You can obviously listen to my podcast ill Communication. You'll find it on all the platforms. And you know the central clearinghouse for everything is Kim Wkyc.com. Qualcomm.
[00:56:30] Awesome. Thanks, Kim.
[00:56:31] Thank you, thank you.
[00:56:37] Hey, thanks for tuning in to today's episode. But before you go, tell me if this sounds familiar, you've just written or had someone else write your website or course, or a mastermind sales page. Or maybe you've had the copy up and running for a while, but it's just not performing as well as you'd hoped. Wouldn't you love to have an expert sales and brand voice copywriter review your copy to flag any concerns that might be creating friction for your ideal client. Wouldn't you love to get a custom list of changes and recommended copy upgrades to immediately increase your signups and sales, without having to pay thousands of dollars or wait weeks to get your copy optimized? If that sounds like you, you might be interested in my no BS copy audit. When you book a no BS copy audit, you'll get a deep dive review of your copy, a video review, a detailed checklist report, and some copy punch ups you can use immediately, all delivered within ten business days. Jennifer and Linda recently booked a no BS audit for their conference sales page. They'd hired different people to write and design the page, but it never matched what they envisioned, and the conference sales were practically non-existent.
[00:57:46] Within a few days of booking their no BS audit, they had a detailed report of what was working, what needed to be optimized, and suggested coffee. They went from barely selling any tickets to selling out 300 seats at their event. They said we are so grateful for how you went above and beyond in your work for us. You somehow crawled into our brains and were able to put into words exactly what we were thinking and imagining. We've been looking for you for a long time, you overdelivered and we can't thank you enough. No-b.s. Audits are delivered within ten business days and are a fraction of what it normally costs to work with a professional copywriter. If you want to book this quick and very effective service, visit Kim shimkin. Com slash audit to download a PDF info sheet that gives you all the deets and a link to book your audit. Within ten days, you can have some refreshed conversion focused copy and a roadmap to make other improvements and changes to get more leads, more clicks, and more sales with your copy. To book yours, visit shimkin. Com slash audit.
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